Responses to Questions on
Unificationism on the Internet - Volume 9



11:28 Oct 6, 1995 Subject: Does Rev. Moon control people's minds? :-) Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian References: <44tk5r$jhi@cutter.clas.ufl.edu> <44v4od$74a@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4521k4$ei8@cutter.clas.ufl.edu> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: Thomas F DiLustro (ponzini@grove.ufl.edu) wrote: : TruthMindd (truthmindd@aol.com) wrote: : : In article <44tk5r$jhi@cutter.clas.ufl.edu>, ponzini@grove.ufl.edu (Thomas : : F DiLustro) writes: : : > Anybody who can command people to marry some : : >stranger is into mind control. : : But I have a friend whose parents are from Pakistan; she told me that her : : own parents met on the day of their wedding! : That may be the custom of her people and I guess that that is all well : and good. But with Moon, he tells people, hundreds of people, that they : will all get married. He makes out like itis inspired or something. : This is mind control. The whole cultis based on mind control as far as : _I_ can tell. What a hopelessly nave view you have! Do you really think that 800,000 people got married on one day and they were all mindless zombies, including professors, former heads of state, religious leaders, and regulars Joes and Janes? Your attitude is condescending in the extreme. Those people get married in that way because they understand the VALUE of it, something you do not. I can tell you that the first time I ever heard of Rev. Sun Myung Moon was in the Guinness Book of Records in an entry regarding the marriages. My Dad said at the time that the guy brainwashed people. I thought to myself that there must be something much deeper involved that some kind of control, something like a commitment to an ideal that he could not or would not see. I was 17 at the time. When I met the church 3 years later, I was immediately interested to find out what made these people tick, and I spent time to study the teachings of the church. Three weeks later, I became a member of the church, in Paris, France, where I was working with IBM, and that was in 1977. I went on to become a missionary in 4 countries. If you think that I am a brainwashed zombie, go look at my resume on my home page. And hey, Thomas, if you want to know if the church is really based on "mind control", why don't you go to a church or an event and find out for yourself, rather than letting someone else decide for you what you should think! :-) Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
13:33 Oct 6, 1995 Subject: Re: Rev. Moon misquoted by Steve Hassan Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian References: <44ktuf$6fi@cutter.clas.ufl.edu> <812580294.16243@tilman.berlin.snafu.de> <44qfrd$70h@zippy.cais.net> <44tkro$jhi@cutter.clas.ufl.edu> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: Thomas F DiLustro (ponzini@grove.ufl.edu) wrote: : : I believe that Rev. Moon is here to complete the work left unfulfilled : : by Jesus Christ. Jesus came to create the Kingdom of God on Earth, : : and it is not here yet, so someone has to do it. Are you volunteering? : This is arrogance on the part of Mr. Moon as well as a false religious : dogma. Christ's fully capable of finishing His own Kingdom when He : decides the time is right. How are you any better a judge of what is false and what is true than any other human being? Unificationists believe that Rev. Moon is the second coming of Christ. How do you know it isn't true? Have you heard him speak? Have you seen his works? Have you studied his teachings? Beware that you don't do to Rev. Moon what the scribes and pharisees did to Jesus. Didn't they call him an arrogant blasphemer? It is easy to recognize the Christ when you have 2000 years of history to back you up. It is a little harder to recognize him when he is in your midst. Every accusation you make about Rev. Moon, you can be assured that the pharisees made about Jesus. : : And yes, Rev. Moon is on a par with God and that is the destiny : : of every human being, including you and me. Even Jesus taught that. : Now, THIS particular sin is found in Genesis 3 when the Serpent tells Eve : that she can be like God. You can _know_ God, you can be brought to : heaven through the grace of Jesus Christ, but you cannot ever, ever, ever : become on a par with God. You can become _like_ Jesus, you can comport : yourself in situations as He would, you can become like Jesus in the next : life (if you are in heaven) but you can never, ever, ever, ever become on : a par with Christ. This is exactly why Moon is a false teacher and a : false god. Well, why did Jesus command us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect in Matt 5:48? God created man and woman in His image, Genesis tells us, and Jesus taught that we are God's children. That suggests more than a passing resemblance. I challenge you to back up with scripture where it says that we CANNOT become like God. I believe that God EXPECTS IT OF US. Satan was tempting Eve to have a privilege that she was not ready for, and that she had been expressly commanded not to do, namely, a sexual relationship. He seduced he and she "ate the fruit". He was tempting her to know good and evil by doing evil. Jesus taught people to know good by doing good. : : I would say that the quotes of Rev. Moon are base on poor translations : : of his words. If you really want to know what he said, I recommend : : that you go to the tapes of what he said in Korean, none of this : : was said in English, and translate it correctly. Now if you don't : : know Korean, you are in no position to say authoritatively what : : he said, and neither am I. If you were to quote Jesus Christ, it : : would certainly help to know what he said in the original language. : : Unfortunately, he taught in Aramaic, and that was then passed on : : in Hebrew and Greek and finally got its way to English. : Again you put Moon on par with Jesus Christ. This is sinful. No, the Unification position is that Sun Myung Moon is GREATER THAN Jesus Christ. If Jesus can be greater than Moses, why can't someone be greater than Jesus? He said himself that we must do greater things than he did. : Now, also, : the quotes were purchased by Hassan when he was with the Unification : Church. They are published by you but since withdrawn from circulation : since they are no longer the correct party line. They were published when the church was young and nave when the members could not imagine that anything he said could be taken the wrong way. Now, great care is made to convey accurately what is said by Rev. Moon. Those early publications were not produced with the same care, and in many cases, a distorted version of what he actually said was published, because there were few members who spoke Korean, and those who did spoke poor English. Now we have much better translators. The translators who have worked on the more recent books are second-generation Korean-Americans who speak excellent idiomatic English, rather than the stilted forced expressions of the non-native speakers. It would be like if you were to go to Japan and speak to some people, and your words were tramslated by someone who spoke broken English and then this poor translation was used as the basis of public attacks against you and what you were doing. : : Now we don't have tapes and transcripts of Jesus' words, but we do have : : those of Rev. Moon dating back to 1956. I have some of the early : : books. There are 200 volumes (yes two hundred) of Rev. Moon's speeches : : published in Korean, so you have plenty of other sources to go : : to if you want to know what he teaches on a particular topic. : Why don't you go to the quotes that Mr. Hassan shows, and then by direct : evidence refute them? You don't. Perhaps because you can't? I don't speak Korean, and I don't have the tapes or the transcripts, so yes, I can't. However, you cannot put words into his mouth as if he said them without some more authoritative evidence. : : Now, my guess is that Steve Hassan is not so interested in what Rev. : : Moon actually said. His interest appears to lie in writing anti-cult : : books and selling them. Is he not a professional anti-cultist? : : It would appear that Rev. Moon is the best thing that ever happened : : to Steve Hassan. He gets to go on TV and pontificate about Rev. : : Moon and how terrible he and his movement are, yet his livelihood : : depends on making Rev. Moon out to be the bad guy. : Mr. Hassan's livelihood is based on alerting people to dangerous cults of : which UC seems to be one. Exactly, he is a professional anti-cultist. If the "cults" that he warns people about ceased to be viewed as a danger, he would have to find an honest way to make a living. Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
13:40 Oct 6, 1995 Subject: Jesus' original mission Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.messianic References: <44vsf1$j66@lantana.singnet.com.sg> <451dq9$qbr@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: TruthMindd (truthmindd@aol.com) wrote: : In article <44vsf1$j66@lantana.singnet.com.sg>, : ezam@teleview.singnet.com.sg (Dennis Cheong) writes: : >Strictly speaking, I would say Jesus did not fail, but rather it was : >his original mission that was incomplete due to the disbelief of the : >chosen people. : What do you mean, his "original" mission? Unificationists believe that Jesus' original mission was to build the Kingdom of God on Earth in his lifetime and that his salvific death on the cross was a secondary and less preferred course to follow. He went that way because the Jewish people who were prepared for 2000 years to receive and accept him could not understand him, and persecuted him as a blasphemer. So, he chose to go the way of martyrdom, as many of his followers did after him, as a demonstration of God's undying love for humanity, no matter how badly we treat God. : Rachel Inverness, TruthMindd@aol.com Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
15:24 Oct 6, 1995 Subject: Steve Hassan - Professional bigot Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.support.ex-cult References: <44aema$mcm$2@mhafm.production.compuserve.com> <44b7b7$rmf@zippy.cais.net> <812330562.27121@tilman.berlin.snafu.de> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote: : BTW, a good place for ex-moonies is Steve Hassan's page : http://virtumall.com/mindcontrol/ : Steve Hassan is an ex-moonie, and has written the book : "Combatting Cult Mind Control". : Some juicy moon quotes are available here: : http://virtumall.com/mindcontrol/moonquotes.html You have to wonder how the public would react if someone were to make their living by telling stories about how bad BLACK people or JEWISH people were. Not that I have anything against these groups, but if someone were to do that for a living, they would be called a racist or an anti-semite, would they not? Now take Steve Hassan. He makes his living by telling us how bad MOONIES are. The term "Moonie" in and of itself is offensive to members of the Unification Church, yet he continues to perpetuate false stereotypes about the Unification Church for one reason only, MONEY. If there were no Unification Church, he would need to find some other bogey man to warn us about. Now there are people who are spreading falsehoods about people of other races and other creeds, but they are selectively criticised. Can one really say that every member of a religious group is evil because one guy full of resentment, false stereotypes and greed says so? Louis Farrakhan and Jesse Jackson tend to get an easier ride than David Duke, though I abhor racism in all its forms. But those who criticise ORIENTALS and MOONIES seem to have a free ride from the public conscience. You see whole shelves full of books on "cults" in Christian book stores. Why is this? Is it because they have lost their power to attract people with the Christian gospel and have to warn people with scare tactics about how dangerous those new religious movements are? What if you were to have shelves full of books in Christian bookstores warning people about Judaism? Would that not cause a huge public outcry from the B'nai B'rith Anti Defamation League? I suggest that the whole anti-cult phenomenon is PURE BIGOTRY and GREED. : --- Tilman Hausherr Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
02:54 Oct 7, 1995 Subject: Re: Steve Hassan - Professional bigot Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.support.ex-cult,alt.religion.scientology Followup-To: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.support.ex-cult,alt.religion.scientology References: <44aema$mcm$2@mhafm.production.compuserve.com> <44b7b7$rmf@zippy.cais.net> <812330562.27121@tilman.berlin.snafu.de> <453vtn$qci@zippy.cais.net> <813018543.7894@tilman.berlin.snafu.de> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote: : damian@cais2.cais.com (Damian J. Anderson) wrote: : >Tilman Hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de) wrote: : > : >You have to wonder how the public would react if someone were to : >make their living by telling stories about how bad BLACK people : >or JEWISH people were. Not that I have anything against these groups, : >but if someone were to do that for a living, they would be called : >a racist or an anti-semite, would they not? : The old "we are persecuted just like that other group that is really : persecuted" argument. We are being singled out for attack by anti-religious zealots. : >Now take Steve Hassan. He makes his living by telling us how bad : >MOONIES are. The term "Moonie" in and of itself is offensive to : >members of the Unification Church, yet he continues to perpetuate : >false stereotypes about the Unification Church for one reason only, : >MONEY. If there were no Unification Church, he would need to find : >some other bogey man to warn us about. Now there are people who : >are spreading falsehoods about people of other races and other : >creeds, but they are selectively criticised. : You miss a point. Steve Hassan make a living by helping people recover : from mind-bending cults. Read a few pages in his book, where he describes : how he gets people back to normal life. Hassan masters this because : he *cares* about people. Of course, you get told that he tortures : people, kidnaps them, etc, etc. Believe this if you like. What is normal? The norm in our society is very sick and decaying fast. Divorce, homosexuality, AIDS, child abuse, these are the norms in today's Western world. It is pretty bad. The Unification Church has a clear religious vision and a vigorous plan of action to implement it, and the defenders of the status quo do not like that. And I do think that the expression "mind-bending cults" is rather quaint, though meaningless. How does a religious group bend your mind? Was it straight and rigid and then got flexible? Brainwashing sounds better. At least it implies that you had a dirty mind and someone washed it. :-) I don't know what Hassan does when he is not writing books, except that he defames our church on TV whenever the subject of "cults" comes up. I do know that what used to be called "deprogramming" is illegal, and that a young man just won a $5 million lawsuit against his attackers. They found that his civil right to freedom of religion had been denied. He was also held against his will, and that is false imprisonment. Both these actions are illegal, though it was not Hassan but Rick Ross who was involved. I know personally individuals who have been subjected to this kind of faith-breaking abuse, and it is very traumatic. This is frequently justified on the basis that we do the same thing, but we do not. All members of our church join voluntarily, and those who want to can leave of their own free will, with no coercion to stay. Minors are not allowed to become members without the consent of their parents, so we are talking about adults. : >Can one really say that every member of a religious group is evil : >because one guy full of resentment, false stereotypes and greed : >says so? : No. I don't know if *you* are like that. It's your organisation that : is evil. You said yourself that you do not know one member of the UC personally. Where do you get your information? From Hassan? You know NOTHING from first hand experience. You have to admit that. All you have to go on is the propaganda that Hassan and his cohorts put out. : >Louis Farrakhan and Jesse Jackson tend to get an easier ride than : >David Duke, though I abhor racism in all its forms. But those who : >criticise ORIENTALS and MOONIES seem to have a free ride from the : >public conscience. You see whole shelves full of books on "cults" : >in Christian book stores. Why is this? Is it because they have : >lost their power to attract people with the Christian gospel and : >have to warn people with scare tactics about how dangerous those : >new religious movements are? : I guess I should add this to my long list of cultie arguments: : real religions are not qaulified to judge cults. Of course, atheists : are not qualified either, since they are "anti-religion" anyway. Have we committed some crime? We may differ on doctrine from other religions, but are we teaching people to do wrong? Jesus said "Do not judge, for the judgement you give will be the judgement you get." Now, if you want to judge, you will be held up to the same standard of scrutiny as you hold us to. : > What if you were to have shelves full : >of books in Christian bookstores warning people about Judaism? : >Would that not cause a huge public outcry from the B'nai B'rith : >Anti Defamation League? : > : >I suggest that the whole anti-cult phenomenon is PURE BIGOTRY and GREED. : Would you also say this to someone who warned about the solar temple, : the Jones thing, and AUM ? There were clear cases of criminal activity in the case of AUM and People's Temple. You have no such evidence on the Unification Church. We do not stockpile weapons and we don't make bombs or nerve gas. The US government investigated Rev. Moon for years looking for something to nail on him and all they could come up with was a trumped up tax charge. : Since I do not get paid, I guess I'm Mr. Bigot, and Steve Hassan : is Mr. Greed. Have it your way! ;-) I just think that you have been influenced by the ideas of others without any first hand knowledge. That is prejudice. You are judging others, and in particular, this organization, the Unification Church and all the affiliated organizations, when you have no knowledge of them but what others tell you. Now I do have first hand knowledge of them, and I tell you that Hassan is wrong. Whatever knowledge he may have had is very old. He was a member a long time ago. If he were concerned about abuses in the church, he may want to find out whether they have been corrected. but if they were, he could sell no more books. So, he has a vested interest in his own ignorance. : BTW, I suggest you look up "Bigot" in a dictionary. Mine translates : this in "religious fanatic". What is this, a free English lesson? :-) Okay, my dictionary says: bigot: one obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion. Now, the bigotry I am referring to is the intolerance. Hassan makes a living out of religious intolerance which would be very much frowned upon if exercised against other minorities, such as Jews and Blacks, : --- Tilman Hausherr Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
03:27 Oct 7, 1995 Subject: Re: World Scripture - Arg Newsgroups: talk.religion.buddhism References: <44udre$fik@unix.infoserve.net> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: Dar Westlake (duhh@unix.infoserve.net) wrote: : Damian@cais3.cais.com sed: : D >Dar Westlake (duhh@unix.infoserve.net) wrote: : D >: Do you mean Rev. Moon has divested of his weapons plants? : D >Have you stopped beating your wife? : I didnt think so. I frankly have no knowledge of any weapons plants owned by Rev. Moon. Your question implies that there are such plants, and I don't know that this is true. Do you? I do know that Tongil Heavy Industries in Korea was required BY LAW to assist in national defense and made weapons parts. : Damian what happens when the Rev Moon, the meglomaniac you call God, dies? I don't call him God, and when he dies, he will go to the Kingdom of Heaven in the spirit world. I hope to go there one day too. On earth, his wife will take over leadership of the church. : dar westlake : duhh@unix.infoserve.net : lotusland, canada Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
21:49 Oct 7, 1995 Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 21:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: World Scripture - Argument with God On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, TC wrote: > Hi Damian, > > I've been seeing your posts for I think over a year now. I > just want to pass on to you that I enjoy them. I am not a Moonie. Nor will I > probably ever be one. But I have a lot of respect for those who have intense > and sincere beliefs and try to live by them. I'd enjoy learning more about > your faith through correspondence. I don't post much. But I do enjoy > corresponding. > > Sincerely, > > TC Hi TC, Thank you for your kind words. Rev. Moon is seeking to do something much more than make people members of his church. He is seeking to revive the God-revering spirit that founded America and to elevate the consciousness of the adherents of all the major world's religions to the point where they practice their own teachings. In particular, we need to establish a tradition of families based on God's love and establish one global human family. If we all do that, and people of faith cooperate worldwide, we can truly create an earthly paradise for all humans to live in. This is the dream of God and humanity, and an idea whose time has come. Sincerely, Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
07:24 Oct 9, 1995 On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, Debbie Nanod wrote: > Aloha Damian! I was just reading your usenet comments on WWW and I felt > I had to express my feelings to all. I joined the Unification Church in > April 1974 after Reverend Moon gave a talk at the Waikiki Sheraton Hotel. > I lived in the Hawaii center for a couple of months then went to > California to fundraise, and later to Yankee Stadium in 1976. > > I decided to "leave" the church in 1978 due to personal reasons, and it > was not out of anger that I left because it was in the church that I > learned about God's heart and his love. Reverend Moon was the > instrument in guiding me back to God and I am forever thankful for his > bringing me back to my "father." To understand God's heart and love is > the essence of the Unification Church and to this day, I still feel God's > heart and love and in times of difficulty. God is here for me and I pray > and I hope that I can be there for him too. The Divine Principle is > deep in my heart and I have not forgotten it--it has helped > me to cope with problems and difficulties in life outside the Church as > well as making decisions. It has bettered my relationship with my > parents and relatives. Should I have any questions, It is only through > prayer to the Father that I am able to have my answers. > > The Unification Church is a good church. I have experienced the life of > Jesus in the sense of being rejected when all he wanted to do was to bring > God's children back to the Father. From the church, I experienced "God" > and his love and concern for all, not just me. My only hope and desire is > that I can be of service to Him forever to ease his pain and bring some > joy to him. > > Thank you very much for letting share these feelings with you! Aloha! > > --debbie nanod from Waianae, Hawaii Aloha, Debbie! Thank you for writing to me. You may not know, but the church has changed dramatically since the 1970s. You may find that you can work with the church on various projects in which you share a common interest. Evidently, you were very touched by the Principle, and Father knows that anyone who was ever touched as you were by God's love and the truth of the Principle are always allies and this will enrich their lives. I am doing my best to bring Father's message to a worldwide audience through my evangelism on the Internet, and I imagine that there are many thousands of former UC members out there who for one reason or another could not handle life in the church as it was. We were living in a war-like situation, battling opposition and attemptng to propagate a message of love to a hostile and ungrateful world. The tide is beginning to turn in our favor, and Father is opening the Blessing as never before to the general public. The next Blessing will be for 3.6 million couples and may well be held in the USA, though no venue has been announced. You may find that you like the Women's Federation for World Peace, which is an organization for women. Its current project is bringing women together from Japan and the USA for International Women's Friendship Conferences, to heal the wounds of the history of enmity between the two countries. They can be reached at 202-636-4992 and 800-251-7362. There will be an event in November in Washington DC in which George Bush will be speaking. There are now events taking place in 6 cities I believe, nationwide, and I will attempt to get the full information and send it to you, and post it on my Home Page. I will forward this message to a mailing list of Unificationists, in the hope that maybe someone will know you, and would like your permission to post this reply on alt.religion.unification. I also have some mailing lists which send out my World Scripture posts and other Unificationist materials. Let me know if you want to subscribe, or follow the instructions below. Postscript: > Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:05:40 -1000 > From: Debbie Nanod > To: "Damian J. Anderson" > Subject: Re: Unification Church > > Thank you Damian for responding so quickly! Yes, you have my permission > to post my reply, and I would definitely like to subscribe to your > mailing list! Thanks so much again for giving me a linkage to the > church. Did I tell you that when I was in the Church in the 70's Father > used to stop in Hawaii and I got to meet him personally many times and even > got my family to meet him! At that time, Bruce Brown and Carmela Acohido > were the Center Directors. Aloha! God bless you, In True Parents' love, Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
00:56 Oct 8, 1995 Subject: What happens when Rev. Moon dies? Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian References: <44udre$fik@unix.infoserve.net> <4559u5$no@zippy.cais.net> <4562mv$h81@sundog.tiac.net> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: Jim Williams (williams@tiac.net) wrote: : damian@cais2.cais.com (Damian J. Anderson) wrote: : > : >I don't call him God, and when he dies, he will go to the Kingdom : >of Heaven in the spirit world. I hope to go there one day too. : >On earth, his wife will take over leadership of the church. : Going to keep it in the family... To elaborate on that, in the generations to come, I believe that there will be leaders elected from the church, by couples. There will be one couple from Rev. Moon's family, and one other couple. Someone told me recently that Rev. Moon had said this, but I have no written record of it. Since we view the Kingdom of God to consist of one worldwide family, we will all be the same family, so of course, it will stay in the family. : Sphere. Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
01:13 Oct 8, 1995 Subject: Re: Jesus' original mission Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.messianic References: <453pfu$pih@zippy.cais.net> <45664o$90g@comet.connix.com> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: Lawrence Frank (frank@folklore.connix.com) wrote: : Damien Anderson writes: : > He went that way because the Jewish people who were prepared for : > 2000 years to receive and accept him could not understand him, : > and persecuted him as a blasphemer. So, he chose to go the way of : > martyrdom, as many of his followers did after him, as a demonstration : > of God's undying love for humanity, no matter how badly we treat God. : If Jesus is God, and God is all powerful, why couldn't he make himself : understood? My God couldn't persuade Adam not to listen! Where is the : requirement to be all powerful? While God is indeed all powerful, He acts within the realm of principles. Since God created us to be His children and thus His equals, He cannot just do everything for us, or we would not merit the position He would then give us. To obtain the position of Son of God and co-creator with God, one has to defeat Satan. Since God knows that we fallen people cannot do that unassisted, He prepared the messiah, Jesus, who was a man like us in everything but that he had no sin. He was the model for us all to follow to become perfected in God's image, and freed from sin. When he said "I am the way", he was saying "The way I live is the way you need to go. Obey me and you will become like me." However, that must be an act freely chosen and not coerced by God or it has no value. If you FORCE someone to love you, you can hardly call it love. God CHOOSES to win us over by good example and gentle persuasion, rather than brute force. Although it has taken mankind a long time to repent from its sin, when we finally do, eternity is a long time for God to enjoy the fruits of His labor to recreate us as his true sons and daughters. This image of God is in line with the parable of the Prodigal Son. Although the father may have been able to haul his son out of his life of debauchery and depravity, he did not. Instead, he waited for the son to come back of his own free will, and then he rejoiced when it finally happened. Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
37 -rw-r--r-- 1 damian cais_use 18489 Oct 8 02:59 art26 Subject: Re: Steve Hassan - Professional bigot Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.support.ex-cult,alt.religion.scientology Followup-To: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.support.ex-cult,alt.religion.scientology References: <44aema$mcm$2@mhafm.production.compuserve.com> <453vtn$qci@zippy.cais.net> <813018543.7894@tilman.berlin.snafu.de> <4557v4$no@zippy.cais.net> <456e9e$5an@nyx.cs.du.edu> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service Distribution: Carl Kaun (ckaun@nyx.cs.du.edu) wrote: : In article <4557v4$no@zippy.cais.net>, : Damian J. Anderson wrote: : i am reading you on alt.religion.scientology. from reading : your entire article, i presume you to be a member of the : unification church, and base my comments on that presumption. Yes, I have been a member of the Unification Church for 18 years. : i think that your posting is better reasoned than *any* : posting i have seen by a scientologist, and that you give : more credibility to your faith than any given by scienos : to theirs. Thank you. : i am clipping several levels of discussion between you : and tilman hausherr (tilman@berlin.snafu.de), and will : attribute with DA and TH. Fine. : DA>We are being singled out for attack by anti-religious zealots. : perhaps there is some of that. i think the majority of opposition : however is not to your religious beliefs, but to your activities, : which are seen as socially and morally objectionable. as with : the scientologists, you (from what i have read) use what are : essentially brainwashing techniques to indoctrinate vulnerable : people to your belief system, you isolate people from their : families and social network, and you seem to have an unholy : interest in separating them from every last nickel they can : get their hands on. There were allegations that the church engaged in brainwashing in the past, and they began in Korea where the North Korean communists used manipulation of food and sleep to weaken and confuse people. The Unification Church has NEVER, to my extensive knowledge, used such techniques. Our general method of recruitment was to talk to people and invite them to workshops. Their membership was entirely voluntary. In the late 1970s, Rev. Moon began to talk about Home Church. There is a whole book about 2 inches thick regarding his teachings on this topic. It involves serving people, where they are, and making the example of our loving and faithful service be our primary witness. Only then would one talk to them about the church. This is more about a way of life than just witnessing activity. One brother in So Paulo in Brazil began to do this, serving his community, starting businesses, creating jobs, evangelizing, and he went from being alone to having a community of about 300 people, all his disciples, converts, spiritual children, whatever you call them, and he owned the whole city block. He started out illiterate, impoverished and had to be taught to read to further his ministry. Now that is an example of how Rev. Moon wants to see evangelism take place, through consistent loving altruistic service, no strings attached. This is the example he has shown us. He encourages us to go work in third world countries, and to leave the affluent lifestyles of America and Europe behind, to find the joy of loving service to our fellow human beings. I worked in Recife, Brazil in 1991 as a missionary for a short time. I also worked in England, France and the USA. Now, there was a group in Oakland, California, back in the 1970s run by Dr. Mose Durst and his wife Onni, called the Creative Community Project. They used to get people involved in some community service activity without mentioning the church and then gradually introduce them to the teachings of the church. They lived communally, which was common in the hippy era. That was closed down by Rev. Moon himself. It caused us to have a bad rap, it was not what he wanted and he took action. Despite that, many members joined in Oakland at that time. He has said on many occasions in my hearing that we should be completely open about our affiliation. I could not quote you exactly where he said this, but with some effort, I could probably come up with a published quote. Incidentally, you can buy his published speeches in English from the New York Church headquarters. However, people hid their affiliation to Rev. Moon out of fear, because we were being subjected to a lot of very hostile media attention, and in many cases to physical violence. This is certainly understandable, and I experienced this first hand, and I admit myself that there were times that I avoided drawing attention to the Rev. Moon connection when I was fundraising, simply because of past experiences of hostility. And at the time, I knew what Rev. Moon had said about it, and I didn't have a good solution to the problem. : DA>Now take Steve Hassan. He makes his living by telling us how bad : DA>MOONIES are. The term "Moonie" in and of itself is offensive to : DA>members of the Unification Church, yet he continues to perpetuate : DA>false stereotypes about the Unification Church for one reason only, : DA>MONEY. If there were no Unification Church, he would need to find : He was once member of the UC, wasn't he, and therefore knows : a thing or two about it. this 'false stereotypes' and : 'anti-religious zealot' kind of talk, BTW, labels you as : having some suspicion it might be true. it's a difficult : box, to be sure, bit it is true. What he says may have had some truth in it in the 1970s, but is it true today? I would have to take each allegation in its turn, and examine it in the light of what I know today. The most potent lie is the half-truth. It has enough truth in it to be believable, and swallowed, but the falsehood in it will poison you. : DA>some other bogey man to warn us about. Now there are people who : DA>are spreading falsehoods about people of other races and other : DA>creeds, but they are selectively criticised. : TH>You miss a point. Steve Hassan make a living by helping people recover : TH>from mind-bending cults. Read a few pages in his book, where he describes : TH>how he gets people back to normal life. Hassan masters this because : TH>he *cares* about people. Of course, you get told that he tortures : TH>people, kidnaps them, etc, etc. Believe this if you like. : no, don't 'believe this if you like'. it is untrue, and : you should make every effort to learn the truth. he *never* : used torture, and it is scandalous to even repeat this. i also : understand Hassan has since rejected the use of physical force as : a means of getting access to those he is trying to reach. i : don't know his methods, but if they are similar to those that : have been successful with scientologists, they only involve : providing honest information that leads a person to understand : that he has been dishonestly manipulated by the belief system he : is involved in. I never suggested that Hassan uses torture, and I have no first hand experience of paid deprogrammers, though I have friends who have bitter soul-scarring experiences of them. There are many things about what deprogrammers do which are illegal: (1) the kidnapping, (2) the false imprisonment, (3) the attempt to deprive people of their freedom of religion by haranguing them to recant their faith. Now, not all deprogrammers work alike. I do not know Hassan's methods, but I have a general idea of what such people do. : DA>What is normal? The norm in our society is very sick and decaying : DA>fast. Divorce, homosexuality, AIDS, child abuse, these are the : DA>norms in today's Western world. It is pretty bad. The Unification : DA>Church has a clear religious vision and a vigorous plan of action to : DA>implement it, and the defenders of the status quo do not like that. : AIDS and child abuse exist, but are not norms, and certainly : are not ideals as your language tends to imply. Whether divorce : or homosexuality are norms or even implicitly bad will be : vigorously debated by others. People may not agree with : your vision. this should be the basis of finding a vision : and plan of action that more than a few can agree on. They : will oppose those parts of your plan of action that are coercive : on their beliefs and ideals, and that certainly is not oppression. I was not suggesting that such pathologies are ideals, but that we live in a sick society in need of solutions to these problems. And we work on many fronts with many different kinds of people. For example, in the recent events in Seoul, Korea surrounding the 360,000 couples wedding, we also had conferences of our organizations for former heads of state, including Mikhail Gorbachev and Hanan Ashrawi, scientists, including 18 Nobel Prize winners, media leaders, religious leaders, and so on. Mrs. Moon just completed a tour of 6 cities in Japan in which George Bush shared the podium, in which she talked about the family and the need to revive true religion which curtails carnal gratification and exhalts the human conscience to pursue its own heartfelt path towards goodness. You will see a lot of people of that level supporting Rev. Moon's work, leading one to believe that the anti-cult people have greatly underestimated Rev. Moon and very much misjudged and misunderstood him. : DA>faith-breaking abuse, and it is very traumatic. This is frequently : DA>justified on the basis that we do the same thing, but we do not. : DA>All members of our church join voluntarily, and those who want : DA>to can leave of their own free will, with no coercion to stay. : DA>Minors are not allowed to become members without the consent of : DA>their parents, so we are talking about adults. : i have read accounts indicating, at least at one time, there : was physical coercion applied by your church. and there is : always in a close system like yours extensive social and : emotional coercion, both blatant and subtle, on members who : struggle with the belief system. There may have been isolated occurrences of physical abuse of individuals, it can happen anywhere, but I can categorically tell you that it is not our policy. If it were, I would have objected. For example, if Joe gets into and argument with Bob and one pushes the other, does that make the organization abusive? EVERY ORGANIZATION, religious and otherwise applies peer pressure on its members. That is partly why organizations exist. In fact, people often desire such pressure as it helps them to behave in a moral way. If you go to church every Sunday, it certainly helps prevent you from doing something blatantly evil. You cannot be married and carry on with a mistress and not expect someone to say something about it. The pressure of the group ensures that and I think that it is healthy. : TH>No. I don't know if *you* are like that. It's your organization that : TH>is evil. : i don't even know that. but if it can't evolve to a socially : respectable organization, i would agree. Every organization consists of people, each of which are endowed by their creator with a conscience. Therefore, there is hope for EVERY organization to reform itself, to split or to disband. I consider the Unification Church to be a powerful force for good in the world, and that is my honest, heartfelt considered opinion. : DA>There were clear cases of criminal activity in the case of AUM : DA>and People's Temple. You have no such evidence on the Unification : DA>Church. We do not stockpile weapons and we don't make bombs or : DA>nerve gas. The US government investigated Rev. Moon for years : DA>looking for something to nail on him and all they could come up : DA>with was a trumped up tax charge. : you are probably right, and yet the patterns of thinking that lead : to the criminal activity are so similar. That pattern is something : like 'the UC is always right, but evil people are persecuting us, : and we are therefore justified in doing thus and so'. You may be right that there is a strong self-preservation instinct within the organization, but because we have such an elevated moral and religious teaching, people could not long sit with something which was clearly wrong. They would feel like hypocrites and complain about it or quit. The one thing about preaching is that the preacher tends to listen to his own sermons and is convicted by his own words. The spirit of God can speak through a man and even convict him of his own sin. I feel confident that we have enough to lose that we would not long stand for the kinds of abuses that Hassan talks about. I am confident that no such abuses exist, at least in the American church. I cannot speak for other countries. : the : scientologists, btw, have institutionalized this kind of thinking, : and think their law (which includes 'fair gaming' and 'dead : agenting') supercedes wog law ('wog' is how the scienos refer : to anybody else). this kind of thinking led the scientologists : to things like operation snow white, to infiltrate governments : and 'correct' information damaging to scientology. If we were accused of something that was actually wrong in our organization, I think that we would be much more likely to clean it up than to cover it up. : DA>Have it your way! ;-) I just think that you have been influenced : DA>by the ideas of others without any first hand knowledge. That is : DA>prejudice. You are judging others, and in particular, this organization, : that is not prejudice (look it up). first hand knowledge is : not a requirement. i have no first-hand knowledge of apartheid, : for example, but i most certainly have gathered information from : a wide variety of sources, pro and con, and have considered opinions : about it. I will concede this point. But unfortunately, the anti-cult forces have had a very loud voice for a long time. I am trying to counterbalance that by having Rev. Moon's teachings freely available on the Internet on my Home Page in 7 languages and counting, so that poeple can find out what he says for themselves without the prejudices of the anti-cult hostility. One thing can be said: the anti cult people have forced us to stay honest and clean. Any religion that is not being opposed is probably dead anyway. Religion by its very nature transforms people's lives and at times shocks those who witness that transformation, and that can evoke a variety of emotions, fear being one. I think that the anti-cult phenomenon stems from this basic misunderstanding of the very nature of religious experience, that religions if they are alive DO AND SHOULD change people dramatically, and that this is GOOD. : DA>the Unification Church and all the affiliated organizations, when : DA>you have no knowledge of them but what others tell you. Now I do : DA>have first hand knowledge of them, and I tell you that Hassan is : DA>wrong. Whatever knowledge he may have had is very old. He was a : DA>member a long time ago. If he were concerned about abuses in the : DA>church, he may want to find out whether they have been corrected. : DA>but if they were, he could sell no more books. So, he has a vested : DA>interest in his own ignorance. : if the abuses (and you apparently admit there were abuses) : have been corrected, then you should be able to tell us about : the steps that were taken, and provide other evidence that : they have been. can you do so? otherwise comments like : 'vested interest in his own ignorance' are very empty charges : that are frequently made by parties who don't necessarily : belief their truth. I think that I have done so above, and if you have any further questions, I will either attempt to answer them or find someone who can. I would say that any abuses that did occur were not committed out of malice but out of ignorant zealotry to fulfil the mission of the organization, with little thought to the long-term consequences of such actions. The organization's basic desire is to be a powerful force for good in the world, to transform the world from one of evil, war, and selfishness to one of goodness, truth, beauty, peace and unselfishness, the desire deeply felt in the heart of every human being. : for what it's worth, i haven't heard much about the UC : for the last several years, so i could believe evidence : that abuses have been corrected. this is in strong : constrast to the situation with scientology. We have no desire to model ourselves after the scientologists. :-) Rev. Moon has been quietly expanding his activities away from the media spotlight. He has a huge array of accomplishments, and more is happening than I can read or write about on a daily basis. Rev. and Mrs. Moon are on a speaking tour of college campuses in Korea right now, and will in the next month or so be speaking in the first 16 countries of a 160 country speaking tour, and I know that they are coming to Europe next. If you are interested to go see him and hear him speak, I may be able to find venue dates for you. I have a large amount of information on my Home Page, one of which is a link to a German page in Austria maintained by Paul Ettl. : ------------------------------------- Carl Kaun (ckaun@nyx.cs.du.edu) --- : Der Horizont vieler Menschen ist ein Kreis mit Radius null, und das nennen : Sie ihre Standpunkt (Goethe) Now I had to get out MY dictionary to read this one: The horizon of many men is a circle with null radius, and that tells you their standpoint. Meine mutter kommt aus Breslau im Schlesien, jetzt Wroclaw im Poland. Ich habe Deutsch zu Hause gelernt, aber es ist ganz schlimm weil ich habe es nicht gebraucht. :-) Gru Gott! P.S. I just realized that I assumed that you were in Germany, when it was Tillman who was. Your address is du.edu, which I am guessing is Duke University. Oh, well, the information about Europe can apply to him if not to you. Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com
10 -rw-r--r-- 1 damian cais_use 4887 Oct 9 17:39 art27 Subject: Re: Steve Hassan - Professional bigot Newsgroups: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.support.ex-cult,alt.religion.scientology Followup-To: alt.religion.unification,talk.religion.misc,alt.religion.christian,alt.support.ex-cult,alt.religion.scientology References: <44aema$mcm$2@mhafm.production.compuserve.com> <453vtn$qci@zippy.cais.net> <813018543.7894@tilman.berlin.snafu.de> <4557v4$no@zippy.cais.net> <457pdo$5s5@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM> Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info@cais.com 703-448-4470 Distribution: William Barwell (wbarwell@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM) wrote: : In article <4557v4$no@zippy.cais.net>, : Damian J. Anderson wrote: : ********* tripe deleted ********** : > : >We are being singled out for attack by anti-religious zealots. : Moonies are attacked for their lies and deceits, their contempt : for others, their rapacious recruiting of the young, their hard core mind : control techniques, and more. : Also their basic beliefs are wrong and stupid. Excuse me, which planet do you live on? Have you had any contact with the Unification Church recently. What you just said is completely false. Either you are ignorant, or you are the liar. : Moon is not the messiah, not the third Adam. How would you know? What is the Messiah and how can you recognize him when you see him? Was it obvious to the people of 2000 years ago? Evidently, it is no easy task to recognize a messiah before he is killed. : Using front groups your cult has tricked young people into joining : a cult that they often have not realized had anything to do with the : Meglomanic Rev. Moon until weeks or even months after they were involved. : Such trickery is unacceptable. This is just plain false. There were a few people doing this back in the 1970s, because they were overly concerned about being persecuted if they said who they were, but that practice was stopped a long time ago. We are very open these days, very direct in our affiliation. Look at my signature. Am I hiding anything? : Moon's cult has done much to cause concern and richly deserves : the contempt most decent persons who know anything of this : rapacious cult will hold it in. Name three things that he has done that causes concern. : This is a cult that to this day will not willingly allow Moon's : private cult insider speeches to be published openly so the entire world : can freely read what Moon REALLY teaches and believes. Well, this is also false. I have MANY of those speeches on my home page, go and see for yourself. That is what is published inside the church for members to read. You can't get any closer to his actual words than being there and understanding Korean. Otherwise, you can read them in the original language, or rely on the translator. The paper versions of the speeches are available from HSA-UWC headquarters in New York: HSA-UWC USA National HQ 4 West 43rd Street New York, NY 10036 (212)997-0050 Attn: Speech department You can buy a subscription to current speeches, and can get historical speeches back to 1977. Earlier ones have not been published in English or are out of print. : Thisis a cult that lied to tens of thousands of it's lower ranking : members by holding the book Unifictaion Principles as representing the : full church teachings when this was not true, and many teachings : were kept secret from them and the world at large. Nonsense! The members are well aware that the skeleton of his teachings are the Divine Principle and the flesh is Rev. Moon's 200 volumes of speeches over 40 years, dating back to 1956, most of which are still untranslated. : It is another sneaky lie cult. You are just an angry SOB. Excuse me, but everything you said here is false, and you come across as angry and ignorant in the extreme. It sounds like you need your brain washed out with soap! : It's teachings are as insane as any other silly cult. : It wastes lives and breaks up families. : It is rapacious and unethical. Nonsense. : Moonism is no better than Stupidology. Oh, so that's your religion, Pope Chuck. Excuse me, I tend to be generous and polite with most people, but you come across as such a total ignoramus, full of your own falsehoods, spouting them with anger, that you try the patience of a saint. Try coming back with some respect and you might get a reasonable hearing. : Pope Charles : SubGenius Pope Of Houston : Slack! Damian Anderson +1-301-921-0082 damian@unification.net Unification Home Page http://www.unification.net Web Pages in English, French, Spanish, German, Japanese, Norwegian, Portuguese See daily articles on talk.religion.misc, or to receive by e-mail, Send "subscribe unification-texts" to unification-texts-request@webcom.com Send "subscribe world-scripture" to world-scripture-request@webcom.com